Was Kris Kristofferson a legendary songwriter, a craggy-voiced member of the “outlaw” generation of country artists, or an actor with nearly 50 films to his credit?
Of course, he was all three.
The legendary artist died at his home in Hawaii yesterday. He was 88.
Kristofferson was a native Texan, too. He was born in Brownsville, though he mostly lived outside the Lone Star State as an adult. Yet his Texas roots always seemed to show, especially jamming with friends like Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings as a member of the supergroup, The Highwaymen.
John Spong is a former Texas Monthly senior editor who hosts the podcast One by Willie. He joined the Standard to discuss Kristofferson’s legacy. Listen to the interview above or read the transcript below.
This transcript has been edited lightly for clarity:
Texas Standard: Very sad news over the weekend. I mentioned just now that Kristofferson had so many talents, wore many hats. How do you think of him? What first came to mind when you heard the news?
John Spong: “Poet,” honestly. For all the stuff that he did and for all the various reasons we know him, all the entry points — be it the movie career, the singing, the folks he was always running around with — when you get right down to it, the reason we know who he is is because he was a beautiful poet who could get by himself and put words together in a way that really changed country music history.
I wasn’t surprised to see several obituaries reminding us he was a really smart guy, too — Rhodes scholar, who at one time planned to be a novelist. How do you think that intelligence came through in his work?
Probably a couple of ways. I mean, just the sheer talent to be able to write that well is something that not a lot of folks are born with. But then you mix in the ambition to take it somewhere and the willingness to sit and work on it and get better.
There is a funny comment in one of those obits I saw this morning, too, about how when he came out of Oxford, he was a Rhodes scholar where he had studied English literature. When he came out of there studying Blake and Yeats and Keats and all those guys, the poetry was a little formal. It was not stiff. It was alive, but it did not necessarily make sense as a country western song. And so that was the training he had. That was how he applied that skill.
And then he started to make the language a little bit more everyman, a little more common, a little more relatable. And what you get then is this music, these words, these stories that you and I can get, but with language that had not been put together that way, and catchy music. And I think about, you know, there’s the lines that everybody knows by heart, like,“Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.” We’ve heard that so many times, it can be hard to remember just how wonderfully original and singular that thought was — deep for a country song.
The one I love is at the start of “Lovin’ Her Was Easier,” where he says, “I have seen the morning burning golden on the mountain in the skies.” That is not a honky tonk song from the ’50s. That is something that hadn’t been done before.
And yet he seemed to sort of cultivate this image of very much an everyday man. I mean, it almost was like that whole reputation as a scholar was something of a yoke. Do you think it was, or no?
I don’t know, I mean, I look at him — he’s so much better-looking than the rest of us, is so much smarter than the rest of us. I’ll be honest. It’s hard to think of him as an everyman. And what he did with this platform that he built for himself, for lack of a better term, is he went out and stood up for the working man and the common man and the oppressed around the world and stuff like that.
There’s all these reasons to love the music. And again, that’s what I would go to first. But I’ve heard so many people, when I’m talking to them about Willie and Kristofferson, they’re the cohort. They’re buddies. They always talk about Cash and Kristofferson as being heroes because of their integrity, and their unflinching, like just unnegotiable willingness to fight for the underdog.
You mentioned Cash. Let’s talk about the supergroup The Highwaymen. You’ve got [Johnny] Cash. You’ve got Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings. Kris was there. What can you say about the music these guys made when they were together and its connection to that outlaw country scene that sort of grew up, especially in and around Austin in the ’70s?
The thing that always killed me about The Highwaymen is it’s four buddies pickin’ guitars and going through songs together, and it’s songs that they loved, that they didn’t write. But then it’s songs that they did.
And if I remember that Willie didn’t even know Cash that well when they started this thing in the mid-80s, and what had happened was they were all brought together to do a Johnny Cash Christmas special, I think in Switzerland. And so when this show was done being taped, they went back to the chalet or wherever they were staying, and they all had their wives and they all had a really nice dinner.
And then the guitars came out and they started swapping songs. And I think it was Willie’s manager, Mark Rothbaum, who said, “Holy smokes, this is a record. We got to make a record of these four dudes.” And so they came together to do it. And they found the absolute perfect song “The Highwayman” by Jimmy Webb, to kind of give each of them a voice.
But this thing, in the song, it’s about reincarnation. It’s this kind of hero/antihero that keeps dying and coming back. So each one of them gets to play that guy, and that kind of shows they were all a part of each other and a part of each other’s lives. And you hear that kind of joy in all the other songs, in the records and the other records they made together.
Yeah. Just talking about the song gives me goosebumps. But beyond the songs, you know, he started acting in the 1970s. Let’s talk about some of his standout roles. Obviously, A Star is Born with Barbra Streisand was a big one. It kind of put him on the national map in a way that he had not been until that point.
Well, that’s what they call “big popcorn” — movie star land — when you get something like that, which was one of the big releases of that whole year. The Sam Peckinpah movie that he did, Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid — that was a huge one, and I think a lot of people think his best. Have you ever seen Songwriter?
No, I’ve wanted to for years, but I haven’t.
Wow. It’s Willie and Kristofferson together. It’s shot in Austin in the mid-80s. It’s streamable now. Rip Torn is in it, and he’s amazing.
You know, Willie kind of plays himself and Kristofferson plays himself. Willie is the guy that’s getting screwed over by the record label. And Kristofferson is the good-looking guy — movie star — that comes in to do some songs with them, but they take on the record business together.
It’s vaguely autobiographical. It is funny as it can be, and Rip Torn. … We should get back on the phone next week after you see it to talk about Rip Torn.
Do you have a favorite Kristofferson song, John?
Well, it’s “Sunday Mornin’ Comin’ Down.” It just kind of has to be.
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