MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
To many observers, the United Nations is a place of strict protocols and occasional high drama wrapped in a thick cloud of bureaucracy. Over the past four years, it's also been the place where veteran diplomat Linda Thomas-Greenfield has put her stamp on international diplomacy. As the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., she dealt with some of the world's most pressing and depressing issues. Yesterday, with just a few weeks left in her assignment, we took the train to New York to meet with her and to talk about her 40-plus years in the Foreign Service and diplomacy. When we arrived at the U.N., we ran into Secretary of State Antony Blinken. He praised Thomas-Greenfield's authenticity.
ANTONY BLINKEN: My friend has just a little bit of charisma, so that doesn't hurt. Linda speaks from the head but also from the heart. And I think that's what resonates with people around the world. They know that what she's saying, she feels. It's not just talking points. It's who she is, and she represents the best of this country. And that's why she's been such a powerful and successful advocate for us on the world stage and here at the United Nations.
MARTIN: We ran into Blinken as he left yesterday's U.N. Security Council session on Sudan, where a civil war has killed thousands and displaced millions since April of 2023. Thomas-Greenfield has been one of the loudest voices calling for an end to the brutal fighting in Sudan. Between meetings, she sat down with us.
Why did you join the Foreign Service to begin with?
LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD: That's a good question. It was a job initially, but it became a passion once I started. I was in academics. I had lived overseas in Liberia. I met foreign service officers. And I was really, really impressed with what they were doing for our country. And I decided it was something I wanted to do, and I was fortunate enough to be selected.
MARTIN: You - I think you're being a little modest because it's not exactly easy to become a Foreign Service officer and - forgive me for pointing this out - in the era in which you joined, there were not very many people who look like you in those roles. So I feel like you had to be more than just kind of you fell into it. I mean, I feel like the passion had to have been there from the beginning, so I'm just curious about what it was.
THOMAS-GREENFIELD: You know, it was the passion of wanting to help people, the real commitment to wanting to serve my country overseas. And the real luck of being selected. It was a lot of luck. I did fall into it. This was not something that I knew about or had experienced prior to going overseas.
MARTIN: So let's talk about your tenure here. Most of your career was involved with Africa. How would you say the challenges on the continent or the challenges vis-a-vis the U.S.-Africa relationship? Are they different than they were when you started?
THOMAS-GREENFIELD: They are extraordinarily different. When I started working on the continent of Africa, it was a continent in turmoil. There were still countries who were not independent. There were coups, and no one really had a sense what Africa's place would be as part of the global and international and multilateral system. Now we know that place. And for me, Africa is the future. And I think all of us, the big powers around the world, see the potential. And that's why there's almost a race for Africa right now.
MARTIN: The U.S., which currently holds the presidency of the Security Council, is chairing yet another council meeting on Sudan. You've made multiple trips. You've brought the media there. We were part of one of those missions. The fighting continues in this. It's been called, like, the worst humanitarian crisis in the world, which is saying something. So why do you think this body has not been effective in intervening in that?
THOMAS-GREENFIELD: Well, we're not attempting to intervene. What the Security Council does is it highlights the situation. It works to address, for example, the humanitarian situation. And I did feel that we were not paying enough attention to what was happening in Sudan. Everybody was focused on Gaza. They were focused on Ukraine. They were focused on Syria. Sudan was pushed to the bottom of the barrel. And through the efforts of me and my team, your team of other journalists, we amplified the seriousness of the situation on the ground in Sudan. And I think that has had an impact, but it's the political side that has been difficult. And part of that has to do with the two generals who have decided they can win this war on the battlefield and have refused to negotiate in good faith toward a political solution.
MARTIN: Then the question becomes, though, what is this giant apparatus for if it can't stop people from killing each other? I think regular people would look at that and say, well, what's the difference?
THOMAS-GREENFIELD: It's so frustrating, I will tell you that. But the Security Council is not a war machine. We're not going to go up and put a barrel of a gun in the face of these two generals to get them to stop fighting. It is not the Security Council that will end those wars. Those wars will be ended by diplomacy.
MARTIN: Well, speaking of wars going on all over the world. I mean, obviously, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the war in Gaza and Russia's latest all-out invasion of Ukraine. And even as we walked into the building here where we are meeting, there's a demonstrator outside criticizing the United States' role, or lack thereof as they see it, in stopping the fighting in Gaza. What would you have to say about that? I mean, both of these erupted during your tenure as U.N. ambassador.
THOMAS-GREENFIELD: Yeah. So on Gaza, there's only one country on the ground, almost on the battlefield of diplomacy, fighting to bring an end to the carnage that is happening, fighting to get a ceasefire, to get hostages released and to get humanitarian assistance to the people of Gaza. We're on the ground, trying to find a solution. On Ukraine, we have really galvanized the world, the entire international community to condemn what Russia is doing in their fight against the Ukrainian people.
MARTIN: Recognizing that the incoming administration does have a very different view of their role at the United Nations, at the world, the incoming administration has already named a successor. That would be the New York Congresswoman Elise Stefanik. She's been nominated to be or she will be nominated to be the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. You know, I don't know if there's a handoff, as it were, between administrations. But if she were to ask for your advice, what would you say to her?
THOMAS-GREENFIELD: I would say to her that the world needs our leadership. They want our leadership, and they will be willing to work with her to support our leadership, not just in the U.N. but around the world. And my advice is to welcome that support with open arms. Engage with every country. Engage.
MARTIN: Don't go it alone.
THOMAS-GREENFIELD: Don't go it alone.
MARTIN: Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield, thanks so much for talking with us once again.
THOMAS-GREENFIELD: Thank you so much, and I hope you continue to report on places like Sudan.
MARTIN: Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield plans to retire for a second time when the Biden administration ends next month. She told us she's looking forward to spending more time with her grandchildren, maybe writing a book, and encouraging others who might not consider a career in diplomacy to think about it.
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